American Gun Rights - A cultural issue more than a defensive issue!?

I'll start my post by stating that i'm from the UK, where guns are illegal.

As an outsider viewing America from afar, albeit familiar with their culture from having several Amercian friends and years of exposure to American tv and interactions on ATS.

The objections that many Americans claim against the anti-gun lobbyists are based on 'the right to bear arms' argument and to defend the citizenry against a potential tyrannical government, as well as the right to defend one's home and family.

It seems to me that the objection of gun control is more of a cultural issue than a defensive issue, as no armed american citizenship could hold off an armed government, especially the American government.

I agree that having armed homes increase the risk for potential intruders, however it would also increase the brutality of the intruder due to the kill or be killed mentality. How many of you gun owners on this forum has honestly had to discharge their weapon in anger / self defense? Be honest.

My argument therefore is that the American populace's reluctance to let go if its arms is based on a cultural heritage of romanticism with weaponry. After all, America was founded on the yee-haw gung ho ideals of 'The Wild West' where disputes were settled at high noon and sherrifs ruled with a six shooter.
This, in conjunction with America's cinematic and televisual history of idealising guns in cop shows and movies, particularly in the eighties, has rooted gun ownership in American culture.

That is fine, its good for a country to know its history and be proud of its heritage.
Isn't it about time that gun owners started acknowledging this instead of backing the weak argument on a dated constitution beleiving it's your 'right' to have a gun? After all, 'rights' have to be earned don't they?

This post is intended to encourage civilised discussion and is not an attempt at 'trolling', I am genuinely interested in hearing if any gun owners agree that the 2nd ammendment argument is flawed and that they keep guns for the cultural symbolism, or that they just genuinely enjoy the sport of target shooting.

I have tried to lay all my cards on the table as best I can, just looking for your honest opinions!

You have near summed up how i feel on the issue too.I hope you have thick skin mate coz they loves their guns and criticizing their rights to guns is like criticizing their moms.

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman


I'm not trolling BUT I want to know if christians think Jesus is just a little overrated. (sarcasm)

C'mon man you really think anyone would believes you aren't trolling? Plus insenuating that the constitution, and therefore the 2nd amendment are "dated", I.E. no loner relevant. Oh no, you aren't trolling.

Originally posted by Binder
reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman

 

Plus insenuating that the constitution, and therefore the 2nd amendment are "dated", I.E. no loner relevant. Oh no, you aren't trolling.

The 2nd ammendment written in 1791 isn't dated!? You sure?

reply to post by Binder


I think its a valid question.No one I know of outside of America understands their deadly fascination with guns and wishing to carry them at all times.And yes times have changed from 220 odd years ago.

Or that great voting system with the electorate college? I am certain californians are greatful to this very day that not all of them have to saddle their horses and ride to washington....

Edit to clarify:
Yes my dear americans, there are anachronistic elements in your constitution. And yes, i think the right to bear arms is one of them.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by debunky]

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
How many of you gun owners on this forum has honestly had to discharge their weapon in anger / self defense?

I know I'm forced to fire off in some random direction due to anger everyday.

What the hell kind of question is that?

Do we really need another 50 page long thread where a bunch of people from nations that have disarmed their citizens harp and rail on those citizens still living in nations who have not disarmed them where in the end nothing is accomplished except an awful lot of people getting pissed off and calling each other names?

From comments of yours I've read in other threads such as: "about time you've joined the rest of the civilized world" I'm coming out know and saying you don't want to understand, you have no desire to learn anything, and you're just full of hate for us and our guns.

Best to go back to your Vicar of Dibley re-runs and football and not waste everyones time on a thread we've all seen 500,000 times before.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

This is my rifle
Without me my rifle is useless
Without my rifle i am useless

Something like that huh?

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
I'll start my post by stating that i'm from the UK, where guns are illegal.






After all, America was founded on the yee-haw gung ho ideals of 'The Wild West' where disputes were settled at high noon and sherrifs ruled with a six shooter.

Too bad you don't know American history. The USA was founded on the East coast, then moved west.

Your Wild West comments are Juvenal also. This thinking is brought on simply by dime novels, movies and TV. When you get your history from these sources you are not very intelligent.

For you who think the US Citizen doesn't need them, well, come and try to take them.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Roper]

Im from the UK,i do my fair share of moaning about america and its policies which affect the world,i dont agree guns are necessary..but well i guess thats cultural brainwashing for you,never held a gun before,not particulary interested either.But one thing that doesn't affect me in anyway is Americans having guns,so its would be rather elitist of me to try and tell them to change their *ways*.. its frankly none of my business,the majority of americans like having guns..there's not much more to say really.

reply to post by Roper


I said ideal of the west, not founded on the west. Read much? As for stating that this thinking is brought about by novels and tv, well if you read my post before going all aggro you would see that this is exactly the point I am trting to make i.e. founded on culture rather than an actual need for weapons. Your motto is even 'Cowboy up', don't you see the irony in your argument?

"For you who think the US Citizen doesn't need them, well, come and try to take them."

And you say my comments are juvenile!?

I am looking for serious discussion here, not macho bravado bulls**t.

I want gun owners opinions without getting all hurt because someone's questioning their right to own guns.

reply to post by Solomons


American gun ownership doesn't affect me but I'm interested in the thinking behind it. I'm merely trying to understand it.

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
The objections that many Americans claim against the anti-gun lobbyists are based on 'the right to bear arms' argument and to defend the citizenry against a potential tyrannical government, as well as the right to defend one's home and family.

The right to defend oneself, against whomever, is a human right. And possession of the most efficient manner in which to do so is a corollary of that human right. The US 2nd ammendment merely recognizes that right, it does not grant it.

no armed american citizenship could hold off an armed government, especially the American government.

These kind of statements remind me of something one of my best friends says... he grew up in South Vietnam during the 1960's and 70's, and is one of the most gentle people you can find anywhere. But whenever anybody says something like this, or "you'd have to be crazy to think you could take on an M1 tank with an assault rifle" (claims made when the original "assault" rifle ban was being debated), he always just smiles and says "I could". And he's got the history to back it up.

instead of backing the weak argument on a dated constitution beleiving it's your 'right' to have a gun?

See above re human right to defend oneself. Not a weak argument at all, although most government types try to frame it that way.

After all, 'rights' have to be earned don't they?

Absolutely NOT. Rights such as self-defense never have to be earned. They have to be defended from time to time.

I am genuinely interested in hearing if any gun owners agree that the 2nd ammendment argument is flawed and that they keep guns for the cultural symbolism, or that they just genuinely enjoy the sport of target shooting.

I'll answer this, without any implication that I am a firearm owner. In my opinion, the only flaw in the second ammendment is the language that some have interpreted to mean only well-regulated militias may own firearms. It should be more clear in recognizing a basic human right.

As for target shooting or hunting, there is NO 2nd ammendment protection for those activities. The 2nd ammendment is explicitly dealing with defending individual freedom against attempted oppression by a government, foreign or domestic.

I think your basic point might have merit, if I'm understanding what your basic point is.

US culture worships violence. And that is not necessarily a good thing at all. But this violence worship is not repeat not caused by the existence or private ownership of firearms. It is a cultural trend that actually is quite harmful. But again, not due to the tools involved.

I for one am all for working towards a culture in which violence is not so worshipped. I have little hope of that happening any time soon, however.

You bring up some good points. It may be mostly cultural, but the bottom line is that we Americans love our guns (myself included). I don't know the statistics behind whether or not America would be a safer country without guns, but I don't think it matters; most Americans are happy with the way things are, and as long as that remains true guns won't be going anywhere. In order for them to be banned, 38 states must vote to do so. I don't see that happening.

Chances are you won't be able to understand our love for guns anymore than we understand your love for afternoon tea.

reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic


Thanks for taking the time to put a well thought out reply together and not get offended by what I am asking! Star for you!!

I'm not specifically implying that America has a violent culture, look at British Empiricism for example, all cultures have aggresive pasts. I'm wondering if the historical romanticism associated with the Wild West era for example may have more of a subconcious impact on gun ownership's defence rather than actual belief in the right or need to own a gun in 2009?

Originally posted by LiquidLight

Chances are you won't be able to understand our love for guns anymore than we understand your love for afternoon tea.

That's exactly the point of this thread, trying to understand whether gun owners actually need guns for defence (if they themselves believe it) or if there's a bigger cultural issue underlying gun ownership.
As for afternoon tea, I don't actually know anyone who has it! All my friends drink coffee!

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman


How can I put this besides just saying it's cultural? We've always owned guns, they're part of our lives. Boys in the rural areas of the country usually learn to shoot before they reach their teens. I shot my first deer when I was twelve.

It's just who we are. It's part of our culture, and it was part of our grandparents' culture. The people who want to take them away usually come from big cities and don't understand that history. As the saying goes, it's as American as apple pie.

Originally posted by LiquidLight
reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman

 

As the saying goes, it's as American as apple pie.

Never quite understood that saying to be honest;

"English apple pie recipes go back to the time of Chaucer. The 1381 recipe lists the ingredients as good apples, good spices, figs, raisins and pears.
en.wikipedia.org...

I can understand that people in the cities want to take away guns, to be honest if I lived somewhere where there was a chance of hunting and being self sufficient I would probably own a rifle.

It's the handgun I don't see as neccesary more than the rifle. That and fully automatic weaponry.

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
That and fully automatic weaponry.

Unless you're already a criminal or have $50,000 burning a hole in your pocket you arent going to get that in America. Full-auto has been regulated out of the hands of the average, non-wealthy, law-abiding American for a very long time now.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


I didn't know that, I thought you could buy M16's, so are these regulated to semi-automatic only?